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Post by Straight Edge Steve on Dec 24, 2013 12:59:10 GMT -5
If you really think about it, no one has an opinion. We all get our beliefs from someone else. I adapt with the facts presented to me by my wiser peers. And I have absolutely no confidence in any belief that I hold other than that of my religion. What...and you're serious. Listen here is some advice that you won't want, but should follow. Learn, read, and look at the world. Have a little faith in yourself as well. Theres nothing wrong with having an open mind, matter of fact I think the world needs more of an open mind. However, make decisions on your own. Myself for example when it comes to wrestling. I was a huge Jeff Hardy mark, I stopped due to the match in TNA where he was too drugged up to continue. That's when my fandom stopped. If you ask most of the guys on this board, they'll demolish him in terms of ring work, story telling, and mic work. They'd then say I'm dumb to like him. While the merits of ring work and the like can be pointed out, my enjoyment wouldn't change based on someone's opinion. That's ridiculous notion look with your own eyes and learn. There is nothing wrong with learning from others. I learn from Mike, WK, Bane, Soon, etc on various topics that I may not be well versed in, but then I go look up the information and make up my own mind. I would take this advice, but it is confusing. |
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Post by wildknight on Dec 24, 2013 13:40:52 GMT -5
I think you guys are misunderstanding Steve's point. He mean to say that no one could ever decide on their own position. He said that no opinion is ever truly your own... which is absolutely true. If you believe that there is no component to a human being beyond the purely physical, biology and neuro-science have proven 100% that there is no such thing as free will, that the brain, like the body, is a chemical machine that simply runs processes, and what you perceive as "choices" and "opinions" are merely the way evolution has designed your brain to operate. Oddly enough, the closest anyone could ever come to genuine free will is to have a mental defect (again, ASSUMING that you accept the notion that the human being is nothing more than a sophisticated animal)
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Post by SoonDragon67 on Dec 24, 2013 13:43:42 GMT -5
He said that no opinion is ever truly your own... which is absolutely true. So if you watch a movie and hate it, it's still not your opinion? |
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Post by wildknight on Dec 24, 2013 17:23:17 GMT -5
He said that no opinion is ever truly your own... which is absolutely true. So if you watch a movie and hate it, it's still not your opinion? You love it or hate it based on a number of criteria, none of which are native to your own mind, so no. |
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Post by ethanm1834 on Dec 24, 2013 18:51:18 GMT -5
I don't agree totally with that type of thinking. Yes you're influenced by a number of factors, but to say hat you never have any native decision doesn't compute for me.
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Post by wildknight on Dec 24, 2013 19:49:57 GMT -5
I don't agree totally with that type of thinking. Yes you're influenced by a number of factors, but to say hat you never have any native decision doesn't compute for me. That's because you don't want to believe, not because you're honestly and objectively considering the facts. ... and again, if you have any knowledge of the current evidence in the fields of biology and neuro-science, your brain is a machine that follows a set number of mechanical functions, in which case you either have to acknowledge that there is more to a human than meat, or that there is no such thing as free will. |
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Post by ethanm1834 on Dec 24, 2013 22:58:45 GMT -5
Perhaps you're correct. Perhaps I don't want to believe that. I think if I decided to believe that, my life would be a senseless form of reproduction to spread the species. Nothing beyond that function would have any baring.
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Post by SoonDragon67 on Dec 24, 2013 23:04:21 GMT -5
Perhaps you're correct. Perhaps I don't want to believe that. I think if I decided to believe that, my life would be a senseless form of reproduction to spread the species. Nothing beyond that function would have any baring. I am personally with you, and I really don't care if the facts aren't on my side in this. It's a personal belief of mine that humans are more than just robots wrapped up in blood and skin that follow the way they were 'programmed' through nurturing. |
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Post by Double-H215 on Dec 25, 2013 0:16:07 GMT -5
They had the Sin Cara character talk.... damnit. LOL I know. |
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Post by wildknight on Dec 25, 2013 0:31:08 GMT -5
Perhaps you're correct. Perhaps I don't want to believe that. I think if I decided to believe that, my life would be a senseless form of reproduction to spread the species. Nothing beyond that function would have any baring. I am personally with you, and I really don't care if the facts aren't on my side in this. It's a personal belief of mine that humans are more than just robots wrapped up in blood and skin that follow the way they were 'programmed' through nurturing. It's my belief too. It's called "a soul" and it's the reason why what would otherwise be a mere meat machine that follows biological programs put into place by the process of evolution... but science can not and will never detect or understand the soul, therefore science cannot acknowledge the concept of free will without a priori rejection of the evidence that science itself has found. That said, I find the statement "I don't care if the facts aren't on my side" to be pretty darned stupid. If the facts aren't on your side, it's because you're wrong, and being wrong simply because you don't want to acknowledge the truth is exactly what you're constantly upset with others (and rightly so) for doing. |
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Post by SoonDragon67 on Dec 25, 2013 9:11:41 GMT -5
I am personally with you, and I really don't care if the facts aren't on my side in this. It's a personal belief of mine that humans are more than just robots wrapped up in blood and skin that follow the way they were 'programmed' through nurturing. It's my belief too. It's called "a soul" and it's the reason why what would otherwise be a mere meat machine that follows biological programs put into place by the process of evolution... but science can not and will never detect or understand the soul, therefore science cannot acknowledge the concept of free will without a priori rejection of the evidence that science itself has found. That said, I find the statement "I don't care if the facts aren't on my side" to be pretty darned stupid. If the facts aren't on your side, it's because you're wrong, and being wrong simply because you don't want to acknowledge the truth is exactly what you're constantly upset with others (and rightly so) for doing. Well, my entire belief system(Christianity) is based around faith, not fact. If I changed my belief system every time 'facts' (Because most of the time they are mere theories) proved me wrong I would hardly be a Christian. |
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Post by Straight Edge Steve on Dec 25, 2013 15:16:04 GMT -5
I wasn't saying that we are necessarily robots, though I feel that most humans basically are. Anyone who fails to see the bigger picture in everything is inside of the imaginary human social society. Those people are robots. They follow trends, believe the popular beliefs, and do not think about the importance of our purpose and the further-ment of mankind. People who just 'live life' are puppets to those who recognize life and what is done to reach life's central goal. What is life's central goal? Nobody knows. But we DO know how to reach it, with the main purpose of each individual life- To reproduce, and understand everything better.
I look at humans from both points of view. We are merely animals with much higher intelligence and adaptability than those around us. But, we are special because, in Christian belief, God shaped US in his image. He gave us instincts and functions like other animals, but ensured that we would rule above all, being his proverbial 'offspring'.
And back on topic, no human ever has a preconceived belief, with the exception of basic instinct. All animals are born with basic instincts. But human ideals, those cannot be birthed into your brain. You are taught human beliefs and ideals. Yes, religion included. People who say they are born homosexual, or those who say they are born bad people, is simply a lie to avoid the consequences of their actions against nature. Homosexuality only exists in human society, we created it. True, 2 male animals may decide to get jiggy, but under very dire circumstances, such as being secluded for too long, causing a build up of testosterone. Or when they have a mental deficiency. Much like humans. You can be born with the mental handicap, but will not develop the idea of 'gay' until you see it in the media or in society itself. I'm not bashing Adam and Steve, I am simply stating that they are going against nature. Which should be obvious, but somehow isn't.
And to prove all of my points about humans and what they are, may I remind you all that we are made of atoms. Atoms, non-living, with no mind to think. They are machines. They function to perform a purpose, and nothing else. We are made of them. So, is a statue made of butter a butter statue? Now I'm positive that there are other things that go into the creation of a human, things extraordinary. Things that cannot be proven with scientific facts. We are NOT like statues of butter. There is something more, which can only be explained by unprovable beliefs, or religions.
Wow, you see what happens when I use my own opinion? I spurt out bullcrap. Or do I....
Knowing that some of you are those 'robots', you'll probably not understand and simply continue living inside your cardboard box, while I look down at you from my place beyond the box of human society.
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Post by SoonDragon67 on Dec 25, 2013 15:30:22 GMT -5
Actually Steve, it's been well proven that people can indeed be born homosexual. They can choose to be heterosexual though, if they are nurtured as such. Of course now we must get into the subject of nature vs nurture, as each of which can have a profound effect on one's life. First of all, you are either born homosexual or heterosexual, bisexuals are sort of a phenomena. Then as you are raised, if you are homosexual, your parents can teach you that such is wrong, and that you should be heterosexual. If they do this in the correct manner then it's possible you could become heterosexual. Also, there are cases where someone is born heterosexual, but through the way they are raised(or personal experiences) they are turned gay. Such could be parents raising them as if they were of the opposite sex, and teaching them to be like the opposite sex. Another way is through manipulation by way of sexual contact and vulnerability. If one has recently experienced a lot of hardship with one that they love(Such as a break up or abuse) one could then be taken advantage of, and if done correctly another could change that person's sexual preference through consolation and kind treatment, followed by convincing them to engage in sexual intercourse. If they then enjoy it they might possibly change their sexual preference. Also another way is use of sexual manipulation, which is a subject I would rather not delve into as it is perhaps the least morally correct way of changing someone's preference.
Anyhow, that ramble probably makes no sense, and I'm sure I've contradicted myself at least once in there...
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Post by Straight Edge Steve on Dec 25, 2013 15:33:17 GMT -5
Actually Steve, it's been well proven that people can indeed be born homosexual. They can choose to be heterosexual though, if they are nurtured as such. Of course now we must get into the subject of nature vs nurture, as each of which can have a profound effect on one's life. First of all, you are either born homosexual or heterosexual, bisexuals are sort of a phenomena. Then as you are raised, if you are homosexual, your parents can teach you that such is wrong, and that you should be heterosexual. If they do this in the correct manner then it's possible you could become heterosexual. Also, there are cases where someone is born heterosexual, but through the way they are raised(or personal experiences) they are turned gay. Such could be parents raising them as if they were of the opposite sex, and teaching them to be like the opposite sex. Another way is through manipulation by way of sexual contact and vulnerability. If one has recently experienced a lot of hardship with one that they love(Such as a break up or abuse) one could then be taken advantage of, and if done correctly another could change that person's sexual preference through consolation and kind treatment, followed by convincing them to engage in sexual intercourse. If they then enjoy it they might possibly change their sexual preference. Also another way is use of sexual manipulation, which is a subject I would rather not delve into as it is perhaps the least morally correct way of changing someone's preference. Anyhow, that ramble probably makes no sense, and I'm sure I've contradicted myself at least once in there... To me, that just sounds ridiculous. I... no comment. Continue on, my wayward son. |
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Post by SoonDragon67 on Dec 25, 2013 15:36:22 GMT -5
Actually Steve, it's been well proven that people can indeed be born homosexual. They can choose to be heterosexual though, if they are nurtured as such. Of course now we must get into the subject of nature vs nurture, as each of which can have a profound effect on one's life. First of all, you are either born homosexual or heterosexual, bisexuals are sort of a phenomena. Then as you are raised, if you are homosexual, your parents can teach you that such is wrong, and that you should be heterosexual. If they do this in the correct manner then it's possible you could become heterosexual. Also, there are cases where someone is born heterosexual, but through the way they are raised(or personal experiences) they are turned gay. Such could be parents raising them as if they were of the opposite sex, and teaching them to be like the opposite sex. Another way is through manipulation by way of sexual contact and vulnerability. If one has recently experienced a lot of hardship with one that they love(Such as a break up or abuse) one could then be taken advantage of, and if done correctly another could change that person's sexual preference through consolation and kind treatment, followed by convincing them to engage in sexual intercourse. If they then enjoy it they might possibly change their sexual preference. Also another way is use of sexual manipulation, which is a subject I would rather not delve into as it is perhaps the least morally correct way of changing someone's preference. Anyhow, that ramble probably makes no sense, and I'm sure I've contradicted myself at least once in there... To me, that just sounds ridiculous. I... no comment. Continue on, my wayward son. Sure, it sounds ridiculous. Unfortunately people are quite easily manipulated in such ways, as has been proven on numerous occasions were you to actually look into things. Also the people being born heterosexual or homosexual is fact, look it up. |
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Post by Straight Edge Steve on Dec 25, 2013 15:43:10 GMT -5
To me, that just sounds ridiculous. I... no comment. Continue on, my wayward son. Sure, it sounds ridiculous. Unfortunately people are quite easily manipulated in such ways, as has been proven on numerous occasions were you to actually look into things. Also the people being born heterosexual or homosexual is fact, look it up. Knowing myself and my flexible beliefs, I can see that being true on occasion. Everyone has different preferences for what about a person that they like. It is very possible that a male can be born with attraction to a human part that is mainly found on another male. Or maybe there is just a general thing that you like in a person, and a dude just happens to have it. And then of course, it would be very easy to fall into that kind of thing with the acceptance of such ideas on Earth today. There is still no such thing as 'homosexual' though, if we are going by that logic. It is simply liking a certain characteristic, and not being bound by moral law, thus allowing you to fulfill your lust for such person with such lovable characteristic. |
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Post by SoonDragon67 on Dec 25, 2013 16:15:32 GMT -5
Sure, it sounds ridiculous. Unfortunately people are quite easily manipulated in such ways, as has been proven on numerous occasions were you to actually look into things. Also the people being born heterosexual or homosexual is fact, look it up. Knowing myself and my flexible beliefs, I can see that being true on occasion. Everyone has different preferences for what about a person that they like. It is very possible that a male can be born with attraction to a human part that is mainly found on another male. Or maybe there is just a general thing that you like in a person, and a dude just happens to have it. And then of course, it would be very easy to fall into that kind of thing with the acceptance of such ideas on Earth today. There is still no such thing as 'homosexual' though, if we are going by that logic. It is simply liking a certain characteristic, and not being bound by moral law, thus allowing you to fulfill your lust for such person with such lovable characteristic. Not necessarily. You see, homosexuality usually stems from certain irregular levels of chromosomes that give a man a more feminine perspective on the world. There is a reason many homosexuals have a more feminine body and a higher pitch of voice than most males. It's genetic. Also in another further case to prove this, it is shown that males with lots of older brothers are more likely to be gay, but the proof in this lies in a very complicated set of biological crap that I don't care about. If you wish to look it up go ahead. |
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Post by Straight Edge Steve on Dec 25, 2013 16:21:27 GMT -5
Knowing myself and my flexible beliefs, I can see that being true on occasion. Everyone has different preferences for what about a person that they like. It is very possible that a male can be born with attraction to a human part that is mainly found on another male. Or maybe there is just a general thing that you like in a person, and a dude just happens to have it. And then of course, it would be very easy to fall into that kind of thing with the acceptance of such ideas on Earth today. There is still no such thing as 'homosexual' though, if we are going by that logic. It is simply liking a certain characteristic, and not being bound by moral law, thus allowing you to fulfill your lust for such person with such lovable characteristic. Not necessarily. You see, homosexuality usually stems from certain irregular levels of chromosomes that give a man a more feminine perspective on the world. There is a reason many homosexuals have a more feminine body and a higher pitch of voice than most males. It's genetic. Also in another further case to prove this, it is shown that males with lots of older brothers are more likely to be gay, but the proof in this lies in a very complicated set of biological crap that I don't care about. If you wish to look it up go ahead. Gen... etic? I... this conversation is depressing me. LET'S STOP! |
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Post by wildknight on Dec 25, 2013 22:17:23 GMT -5
Well, my entire belief system(Christianity) is based around faith, not fact. If I changed my belief system every time 'facts' (Because most of the time they are mere theories) proved me wrong I would hardly be a Christian. I have an enormous problem with that statement. Christian Apologetics exist because our faith is founded in fact and logic. The Bible says "Come, let us reason together" for a reason. Faith is a gift God gives to you through the Holy Spirit, not an excuse for us to avoid having to defend our belief. Christianity is a violation of logic... it is the final link in human knowledge and the most endearing system of logic ever created. |
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Post by wildknight on Dec 25, 2013 22:22:10 GMT -5
Re: Homosexuality. For a Christian, the question is not and never should be "is homosexuality genetic?" If it is, or if it isn't, what does that matter? People can be born with a number of traits which we still consider immoral, and people can learn a number of behaviors which we consider righteous. The nature vs. nurture element of the argument is a strawman that we should never have allowed ourselves to get dragged into, but the fact that we've been cast as enemies of science for so long has left us reactionary. Science says that they've discovered something and it "proves" this or that, and rather than question how it has "proven" anything, we question the discovery itself.
Evidence is usually real (though I can name a number of instances where "science" has produced "evidence" that was nothing more than wishful thinking)... conclusions are debatable.
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