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Post by TomJohns on Jan 31, 2014 15:09:38 GMT -5
Basically I'm saying that WWE should cater to their larger audience. Yeah, I don't see that. The "larger audience" that they need IS the family audience. It's the audience they need yeah, Not the one they've got though. |
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Post by charliebucketsgranpa on Jan 31, 2014 15:11:02 GMT -5
I did love the Orton "Legend Killer" gimmick.  |
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Post by TomJohns on Jan 31, 2014 15:13:23 GMT -5
I loved the Orton Legend Killer gimmick as well, And the in between part where he was Punting anything and everything that had a pulse...
Orton is good at the moment as well
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Serboy
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Post by Serboy on Jan 31, 2014 15:14:57 GMT -5
I do believe that the programming should have more intensity. I'm not saying every promo should be like Jake's serious promos or every match should be like Angle vs. Benoit at Royal Rumble 2003, that can't be possible. But, the performers could work on their cardio (looking at you, Batista).
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Post by miketheratguy on Jan 31, 2014 15:15:45 GMT -5
I don't think that PG is necessarily killing the business in and of itself, it's the stuff that WWE has chosen to do during the PG era that's killing the business. The lengthy in-ring script readings, the endless social media plugs, the product placement, the insipid and apparently last-minute booking, the ridiculous comedy moments, the complete ignorance of what fans seem to like, etc. The WWE is currently a product of complete hubris, their attitude apparently one of "If they want wrestling they'll want us because we're pretty much the only game in town". They're a monopoly with near limitless resources and they know it, and they seem to have lost their way. Complacency breeds in such an environment, they don't bend over backwards to be at their best because, apparently, they feel that they don't need to. Two years is a pretty quick rise to the top. Most of the great champions before that generation were in the business about 10 years before getting a major strap. Lesnar, Orton, and Cena all got theirs much more quickly. Lesnar 2 years, Orton 4 years, and Cena 6 years. I have always defended Orton, and the "Legend Killer", IMO, is one of the top 10 greatest gimmicks of all time... but a decade of near omnipresence in the Main Event picture is too much. I'm not sure if I disagree with the two year path or not. For some guys, especially ones who are so young to the business like Orton was, it does seem too fast. At the same time if the ability is there it seems like a reasonable duration, especially when you look at how quickly some other guys with less ability have gotten the title. It can be argued that some of Orton's alleged backstage issues could have stemmed from being pushed too hard, too fast, but there's really no way to know for sure. What I do agree wholeheartedly agree with is the notion that once someone is "in" and has "made it" to superstardom at the top of the card he earns some kind of lifelong membership to the front of the plane and never has to fly coach again. |
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Post by miketheratguy on Jan 31, 2014 15:17:43 GMT -5
I loved the Orton Legend Killer gimmick as well, And the in between part where he was Punting anything and everything that had a pulse... Orton is good at the moment as well Yeah to me the Legend Killer was the height of Orton's career so it's a shame that it happened a decade ago. I'm sorry, I really didn't give six drizzling shits about "the (insert hyperbole and several nicknames here) who slowly stalks people and kicks them in the head". Shame though, that "Voices" theme is one of the best of all time. |
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Post by charliebucketsgranpa on Jan 31, 2014 15:20:57 GMT -5
I liked Orton in 2009. I thought his Legacy stuff was great. I don't like him as much now but I'm not sure why. But yea, his Legend Killer stuff was my favorite.
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Serboy
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Nobody EVER reads this bullshit.
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Post by Serboy on Jan 31, 2014 15:21:48 GMT -5
I don't think that PG is necessarily killing the business in and of itself, it's the stuff that WWE has chosen to do during the PG era that's killing the business. The lengthy in-ring script readings, the endless social media plugs, the product placement, the insipid and apparently last-minute booking, the ridiculous comedy moments, the complete ignorance of what fans seem to like, etc. The WWE is currently a product of complete hubris, their attitude apparently one of "If they want wrestling they'll want us because we're pretty much the only game in town". They're a monopoly with near limitless resources and they know it, and they seem to have lost their way. Complacency breeds in such an environment, they don't bend over backwards to be at their best because, apparently, they feel that they don't need to. Two years is a pretty quick rise to the top. Most of the great champions before that generation were in the business about 10 years before getting a major strap. Lesnar, Orton, and Cena all got theirs much more quickly. Lesnar 2 years, Orton 4 years, and Cena 6 years. I have always defended Orton, and the "Legend Killer", IMO, is one of the top 10 greatest gimmicks of all time... but a decade of near omnipresence in the Main Event picture is too much. I'm not sure if I disagree with the two year path or not. For some guys, especially ones who are so young to the business like Orton was, it does seem too fast. At the same time if the ability is there it seems like a reasonable duration, especially when you look at how quickly some other guys with less ability have gotten the title. It can be argued that some of Orton's alleged backstage issues could have stemmed from being pushed too hard, too fast, but there's really no way to know for sure. What I do agree wholeheartedly agree with is the notion that once someone is "in" and has "made it" to superstardom at the top of the card he earns some kind of lifelong membership to the front of the plane and never has to fly coach again. The comedy is horrible. WWE shot itself in the foot with El Torito (oh God, I hate him), especially when he started "wrestling". |
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Post by TomJohns on Jan 31, 2014 15:22:03 GMT -5
I loved the Orton Legend Killer gimmick as well, And the in between part where he was Punting anything and everything that had a pulse... Orton is good at the moment as well Yeah to me the Legend Killer was the height of Orton's career so it's a shame that it happened a decade ago. I'm sorry, I really didn't give six drizzling s***s about "the (insert hyperbole and several nicknames here) who slowly stalks people and kicks them in the head". Shame though, that "Voices" theme is one of the best of all time. The transition stage between the legend killer and the viper is what I liked the most. He had the speed from his Legend killer gimmick and the viciousness of the Viper gimmick. |
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Post by wildknight on Jan 31, 2014 15:22:30 GMT -5
You may not like the Viper gimmick, but it's a perfectly viable gimmick for Orton at this stage in his career, and he works it very well. It's not as if he could be working the "Legend Killer" gimmick when he's got more world titles to his name than Stone Cold ever did.
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Post by wildknight on Jan 31, 2014 15:24:18 GMT -5
My only problem with Orton's current stuff is that he's trimmed down his moveset too far and the RKO stopped being an "out of anywhere" move for the most part. Orton still varies up the speed of his offense quite a bit, which is rare these days... but the RKO was the exclamation point on his method of slowly taking an opponent apart, and now that that's gone, his matches have lost cohesion.
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Post by WSS? on Jan 31, 2014 15:27:43 GMT -5
The few WWE shows I've seen recently, Orton almost entirely used chinlocks and stomps. So yeah, I'm a bit bored with the guy at the moment, even though he's one of my favorites.
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Post by wildknight on Jan 31, 2014 15:31:40 GMT -5
The few WWE shows I've seen recently, Orton almost entirely used chinlocks and stomps. So yeah, I'm a bit bored with the guy at the moment, even though he's one of my favorites. I would argue that he uses a lot more than chinlocks. One of the reasons the fan have been chanting "boring" during his matches is because he's decided to actually wrestle, and wrestling fans hate wrestling. He uses a lot of different locks... thats his way of slowing down the action, and actually Orton has always implemented more traditional wrestling than most guys of his generation. It's the rest of his arsenal that has shrunk and shrunk again, and it's really disappointing. He's basically down to punching, kicking, and a few select moves (which is basically the way everybody in WWE is "wrestling" now) |
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Post by WSS? on Jan 31, 2014 15:34:11 GMT -5
I love submission holds, except chinlocks. Chinlocks are just... Bleh.
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Post by miketheratguy on Jan 31, 2014 15:34:32 GMT -5
I don't even know who or what El Torito is. My understanding is that he's a midget in a bull suit? This is happening because why? You may not like the Viper gimmick, but it's a perfectly viable gimmick for Orton at this stage in his career, and he works it very well. It's not as if he could be working the "Legend Killer" gimmick when he's got more world titles to his name than Stone Cold ever did. I'll have to take your word for it, it bored the s*** out of me. I thought it was a terrible, terrible character, especially for someone with Orton's talent. I couldn't stand looking at the guy in 2009. EDIT: That's not to say I think that he should still be The Legend Killer, that ran its course just fine. Some guys should just be "Dude McPerson: Talented wrestler who gets by on his own charisma and skill" and I feel Orton should be one of them. He doesn't need a gimmick. |
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Post by wildknight on Jan 31, 2014 15:37:56 GMT -5
I don't even know who or what El Torito is. My understanding is that he's a midget in a bull suit? This is happening because why? You summed it up pretty well. Torito was in the Royal Rumble. He eliminated Fandango. You know, the really good young worker that Jericho lost to at Wrestlemania in order to help put him Over? Torito is there because when you've got a couple of relatively skilled Puerto Rican guys who are moderately successful as a tag team, what else are you going to do with them other than re-package them as Mexican bullfighters in ridiculous costumes. And HEY, if you've got Puerto Rican Mexican Bullfighters in pink Ninja Turtle masks, you can't NOT have a midget in a bull suit! |
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Post by miketheratguy on Jan 31, 2014 15:41:12 GMT -5
I don't even know who or what El Torito is. My understanding is that he's a midget in a bull suit? This is happening because why? Torito is there because when you've got a couple of relatively skilled Puerto Rican guys who are moderately successful as a tag team, what else are you going to do with them other than re-package them as Mexican bullfighters in ridiculous costumes. And HEY, if you've got Puerto Rican Mexican Bullfighters in pink Ninja Turtle masks, you can't NOT have a midget in a bull suit! *Sigh*. The fact that this wasn't my first guess makes me disappointed with myself. |
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Post by wildknight on Jan 31, 2014 15:43:50 GMT -5
The worst part is that WWE doesn't even respect WWE's stupid decision making. JBL blatantly mocks this crap week in and week out from the commentary table. I can't remember the number of "wink and a nod" type references JBL made during "Los Matadores" debut match.
... come to think of it, if JBL is coming across as the most clever guy in your organization, you've got problems.
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Post by miketheratguy on Jan 31, 2014 16:28:54 GMT -5
I was just talking to my Wisconsin buddy about this very phenomenon yesterday (though not in reference to this particular example of it). We were chatting about commentators and I talked about how one of the reasons why I loved Ventura's commentary is that he made it sound as if he was taking the product seriously without sounding like a cartoon. I lamented the fact that the modern style, especially apparent with guys like Lawler, is to constantly tell jokes and mock or riff on the onscreen action. I don't really get the point of this and wonder why it became not just acceptable but preferable to talk up the product as comedy.
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Post by wildknight on Jan 31, 2014 16:31:06 GMT -5
I was just talking to my Wisconsin buddy about this very phenomenon yesterday (though not in reference to this particular example of it). We were chatting about commentators and I talked about how one of the reasons why I loved Ventura's commentary is that he made it sound as if he was taking the product seriously without sounding like a cartoon. I lamented the fact that the modern style, especially apparent with guys like Lawler, is to constantly tell jokes and mock or riff on the onscreen action. I don't really get the point of this and wonder why it became not just acceptable but preferable to talk up the product as comedy. Well for one thing, there's no fake strategy to the fake fighting anymore, so what do the commentators have to add to the match? The purpose of commentators in sports is to tell the audience what's going on and why. |
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