Raw Live Discussion 7/7/14

[BaneTheDestroyer]

Jul 8, 2014 0:02:59 GMT -5 wildknight said:

Jul 8, 2014 0:02:24 GMT -5 BaneTheDestroyer said:

I do remember a few people (knight included in these few) saying Reigns was going to win the Royal Rumble. However, I remember even more saying there was no chance because WWE didn't care. And I also remember the "HE TIED KANE'S RECORD!!!" because I was one of them that thought it was stupid.

I never said he was going to win. I said he should have.

You said he was the only reasonable one to win it, so it's close enough for me, lol.

[wildknight]

Jul 8, 2014 0:03:45 GMT -5 BaneTheDestroyer said:

Jul 8, 2014 0:02:59 GMT -5 wildknight said:

I never said he was going to win. I said he should have.

You said he was the only reasonable one to win it, so it's close enough for me, lol.

I'm fairly certain I didn't say that, either. I was certain that Batista wasn't going to win it (and was wrong, obviously), but I certainly didn't have any particular expectation that Reigns would actually win. The WWE has been pissing away any momentum anyone actually builds up in the company for years, and instead ramrodding their handpicked crapbags (read; Seth Rollins currently) down the fans' throats. Reigns was the logical choice, and therefore, almost completely unlikely to win.

[WrestleClown]

Jul 8, 2014 0:02:10 GMT -5 wildknight said:

Jul 8, 2014 0:00:36 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

*Shrugs*

You can if you want to, but it's there.

*Honk*

It's "there"... but it's an inaccurate statement. Reigns had tremendous momentum going into the Rumble, and broke Kane's record for eliminations at the Rumble. That didn't happen in a vacuum... it was a result of the fact that the WWE had been building him as an unstoppable machine for months prior.

Tensai, Ryback, Umaga, Khali, all of these men were built as unstoppable monsters.  When you're as big as Roman Reigns, that means next to nothing.  It's almost expected.  They're actually involving him with the main event names now.  That's momentum to me, the fact that he constantly ends the show, the fact that he is always making the big save of the night, and the fact that he is involved with main events of PPVs is a sign that they're still behind him.  

All he had before that is the big guy treatment and the ability to get a response from the crowd.

*Honk*

[BaneTheDestroyer]

Jul 8, 2014 0:08:20 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Jul 8, 2014 0:02:10 GMT -5 wildknight said:

It's "there"... but it's an inaccurate statement. Reigns had tremendous momentum going into the Rumble, and broke Kane's record for eliminations at the Rumble. That didn't happen in a vacuum... it was a result of the fact that the WWE had been building him as an unstoppable machine for months prior.

Tensai, Ryback, Umaga, Khali, all of these men were built as unstoppable monsters.  When you're as big as Roman Reigns, that means next to nothing.  It's almost expected.  They're actually involving him with the main event names now.  That's momentum to me, the fact that he constantly ends the show, the fact that he is always making the big save of the night, and the fact that he is involved with main events of PPVs is a sign that they're still behind him.  

All he had before that is the big guy treatment and the ability to get a response from the crowd.

*Honk*

Unrelated question, do you manually put that honk in every message, lol?

[WrestleClown]

Jul 8, 2014 0:11:15 GMT -5 BaneTheDestroyer said:

Jul 8, 2014 0:08:20 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Tensai, Ryback, Umaga, Khali, all of these men were built as unstoppable monsters.  When you're as big as Roman Reigns, that means next to nothing.  It's almost expected.  They're actually involving him with the main event names now.  That's momentum to me, the fact that he constantly ends the show, the fact that he is always making the big save of the night, and the fact that he is involved with main events of PPVs is a sign that they're still behind him.  

All he had before that is the big guy treatment and the ability to get a response from the crowd.

*Honk*

Unrelated question, do you manually put that honk in every message, lol?

I do.

I'm very dedicated.

*Honk*

[BaneTheDestroyer]

Jul 8, 2014 0:12:05 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Jul 8, 2014 0:11:15 GMT -5 BaneTheDestroyer said:

Unrelated question, do you manually put that honk in every message, lol?

I do.

I'm very dedicated.

*Honk*

I think there's a feature in "edit profile" that allows it to automatically go there in every post, lol.

[WrestleClown]

Jul 8, 2014 0:13:19 GMT -5 BaneTheDestroyer said:

Jul 8, 2014 0:12:05 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

I do.

I'm very dedicated.

*Honk*

I think there's a feature in "edit profile" that allows it to automatically go there in every post, lol.

... I don't think I can stop at this point, it's become a habit.

*Honk*

[BaneTheDestroyer]

Jul 8, 2014 0:14:24 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Jul 8, 2014 0:13:19 GMT -5 BaneTheDestroyer said:

I think there's a feature in "edit profile" that allows it to automatically go there in every post, lol.

... I don't think I can stop at this point, it's become a habit.

*Honk*

Lol, fair enough.

[wildknight]

Jul 8, 2014 0:08:20 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Jul 8, 2014 0:02:10 GMT -5 wildknight said:

It's "there"... but it's an inaccurate statement. Reigns had tremendous momentum going into the Rumble, and broke Kane's record for eliminations at the Rumble. That didn't happen in a vacuum... it was a result of the fact that the WWE had been building him as an unstoppable machine for months prior.

Tensai, Ryback, Umaga, Khali, all of these men were built as unstoppable monsters.  When you're as big as Roman Reigns, that means next to nothing.  It's almost expected.  They're actually involving him with the main event names now.  That's momentum to me, the fact that he constantly ends the show, the fact that he is always making the big save of the night, and the fact that he is involved with main events of PPVs is a sign that they're still behind him.  

All he had before that is the big guy treatment and the ability to get a response from the crowd.

*Honk*

Tensai and Khali weren't built as anything. They were failures out of the gate. Ryback is a perfect example of wasted potential, and Umaga actually had a nice long run as a monster.

... none of which has anything to do with Reigns. He's not that big (he's 6'3", maybe 240, billed at 265, hardly a huge performer), and he's never been built or billed as a monster. Reigns has never ever been treated as "the big guy" aside from being "the powerhouse of The Shield"... which isn't saying anything, given the unimpressive physiques of the other two members of the group. Seth Rollins looks like a kid who got jammed in lockers in high school.

The notion that "because he closes the show, he's doing well" is ridiculous. We could both name a huge list of guys who have been put into that position and gone absolutely nowhere. He's there right now because they're trying to make the 4-way seem relevant. Nothing more.

[WrestleClown]

Jul 8, 2014 0:15:15 GMT -5 wildknight said:

Jul 8, 2014 0:08:20 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Tensai, Ryback, Umaga, Khali, all of these men were built as unstoppable monsters.  When you're as big as Roman Reigns, that means next to nothing.  It's almost expected.  They're actually involving him with the main event names now.  That's momentum to me, the fact that he constantly ends the show, the fact that he is always making the big save of the night, and the fact that he is involved with main events of PPVs is a sign that they're still behind him.  

All he had before that is the big guy treatment and the ability to get a response from the crowd.

*Honk*

Tensai and Khali weren't built as anything. They were failures out of the gate. Ryback is a perfect example of wasted potential, and Umaga actually had a nice long run as a monster.

... none of which has anything to do with Reigns. He's not that big (he's 6'3", maybe 240, billed at 265, hardly a huge performer), and he's never been built or billed as a monster. Reigns has never ever been treated as "the big guy" aside from being "the powerhouse of The Shield"... which isn't saying anything, given the unimpressive physiques of the other two members of the group. Seth Rollins looks like a kid who got jammed in lockers in high school.

The notion that "because he closes the show, he's doing well" is ridiculous. We could both name a huge list of guys who have been put into that position and gone absolutely nowhere. He's there right now because they're trying to make the 4-way seem relevant. Nothing more.

Tensai was feuding with John Cena and wrecking him night in and out.  They threw a lot behind him, and it just didn't pan out.  Khali came out and knocked Taker out on his first night, leading a domination run that came up short due to his shitty ringwork that became quickly apparent.

Roman Reigns is still being played off as the powerhouse type, and while he's not all that big, they're still playing the "Big Guy Intimidation factor" with him.  They have been ever since he was with the Shield.  They play Luke Harper off as a powerhouse behind Bray Wyatt and he's only 2 inches taller and 10 pounds more.

It's not ridiculous.  I'm not sure what more you want?  You really think they're having Roman Reigns do all of this for one PPV match?  Also all of those names on that list who have been done all of this and failed...  They failed because they didn't perform, not because they were being misused.  WWE is investing a lot of time and effort into making Roman Reigns look like a legitimate threat.  If it doesn't pan out, it's going to be due to Roman Reigns.  He's getting all of the opportunities he can ask for.  You said yourself that Seth Rollins is being pushed too quickly toward the title, so why would it make sense for Roman Reigns to go for the championship?

They're capitalizing on Reigns, but not in a way to where he is abruptly forced down our throats, which is what you seemingly want for some reason.  I think he's fine, and WWE are giving him the opportunities he needs (He could use a few long singles matches, but maybe there's a reason why they're avoiding those).  I'm certain that the 4-way match is not the end for Roman Reigns; There's too much of an investment, and his slow push has been building for too long.

*Honk*

[wildknight]

Jul 8, 2014 0:29:33 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Tensai was feuding with John Cena and wrecking him night in and out.  They threw a lot behind him, and it just didn't pan out.  Khali came out and knocked Taker out on his first night, leading a domination run that came up short due to his shitty ringwork that became quickly apparent.

... Tensai never "feuded" with Cena. He had a couple of matches with Cena. And only went Over once. Khali's "domination run" included such memorable events as him attacking Taker unawares, then following that up with a squash match over Funaki, then crushing Rey Mysterio before... dropping off the face of the earth because he wasn't able to appear at the PPV. Yep. Super dominance! Reign of terror! His "big return" was him having to cheat to defeat Cena

Roman Reigns is still being played off as the powerhouse type, and while he's not all that big, they're still playing the "Big Guy Intimidation factor" with him.  They have been ever since he was with the Shield.  They play Luke Harper off as a powerhouse behind Bray Wyatt and he's only 2 inches taller and 10 pounds more.

... seems like you're under the impression that "powerhouse" and "monster" mean the same thing in wrestling. They don't.

It's not ridiculous.

It is, in fact. Very much so. You don't like Reigns so you want to ignore the fact that the fans were behind him. That's your choice, but it's not a realistic view of events.

You really think they're having Roman Reigns do all of this for one PPV match?

... are you seriously telling me that as a wrestling fan you don't remember (or at least won't acknowledge) all of the times that guys have been made to appear to be "Main Event" guys for the purposes of one or two PPVs and then dropped like rocks?

You keep comparing Reigns to Rollins, as if they're interchangeable. Reigns had the fans at his back. Rollins did not.

They're capitalizing on Reigns

... yep, they sure are. They're using his popularity with the fans to prop up their chosen guys. Cena will benefit from Reigns' popularity. Rollins will benefit from Reigns' popularity. Reigns won't, but hey, screw the fans, what do they know about what they want to see anyhow?

[WrestleClown]

Jul 8, 2014 1:04:55 GMT -5 wildknight said:

... Tensai never "feuded" with Cena. He had a couple of matches with Cena. And only went Over once.

I never said he won the feud, but yes, he was feuding with John Cena.  They collided week in and week out, attacking each other after matches and making promos specifically for each other.  I also never said the feud was anything amazing, but they did feud.

Khali's "domination run" included such memorable events as him attacking Taker unawares, then following that up with a squash match over Funaki, then crushing Rey Mysterio before... dropping off the face of the earth because he wasn't able to appear at the PPV. Yep. Super dominance! Reign of terror! His "big return" was him having to cheat to defeat Cena

He also got a pin over Undertaker at a PPV during that run, but I'm pretty sure I said that his run was cut short due to his terrible in ring work.  Also, this was arguably the biggest year of Rey's career (Just a couple months after he won the WHC), so let's keep that in mind.  I'm sorry, but if you expect anyone to debut and begin with victories over the likes of John Cena, Triple H, Daniel Bryan back to back, then you're SOL.   The point is , is that he was beginning a run of dominance before it became apparent that his matches were copy and paste "Slap, chop, big boot" matches.

It is, in fact. Very much so. You don't like Reigns so you want to ignore the fact that the fans were behind him. That's your choice, but it's not a realistic view of events.

LOL.  You're making this a personal thing between me and Reigns?  I like Reigns.  I just don't drop a load in my drawers because he's not a 3X champion before he has some main event victories under his belt.

... are you seriously telling me that as a wrestling fan you don't remember (or at least won't acknowledge) all of the times that guys have been made to appear to be "Main Event" guys for the purposes of one or two PPVs and then dropped like rocks?

... are you seriously suggesting that they didn't drop like rocks because their respective runs didn't turn out with the fans or they didn't perform at the required level?  You're trying to place a dead set pattern without acknowledging the outside factors.

You keep comparing Reigns to Rollins, as if they're interchangeable. Reigns had the fans at his back. Rollins did not.

According strictly to how long they've been in the WWE, they are interchangeable.   If it's too quick to move Rollins onto the next level, then it's too quick to move Reigns, no matter how many fans he has.   Sling-shotting Sheamus, Ziggler, and Daniel Bryan so early is what fucked them over so badly.

... yep, they sure are. They're using his popularity with the fans to prop up their chosen guys. Cena will benefit from Reigns' popularity. Rollins will benefit from Reigns' popularity. Reigns won't, but hey, screw the fans, what do they know about what they want to see anyhow?

Dude, it benefits Reigns greatly to even be involved with the likes of Cena.  You've set up in your head that Reigns is better than what he really is.  Blindly pushing him to the moon will grow stale after a while, and then he's going to get caught in the Jack Swagger/Sheamus/Dolph Ziggler trap.   How is Reign's not already benefiting?  Like you said, look at all the people that were given big pushes and then disappeared within weeks.  They kept Reigns, and he still has plenty road to travel.

*Honk*

[setokaiba]

Jul 8, 2014 0:11:15 GMT -5 BaneTheDestroyer said:

Jul 8, 2014 0:08:20 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Tensai, Ryback, Umaga, Khali, all of these men were built as unstoppable monsters.  When you're as big as Roman Reigns, that means next to nothing.  It's almost expected.  They're actually involving him with the main event names now.  That's momentum to me, the fact that he constantly ends the show, the fact that he is always making the big save of the night, and the fact that he is involved with main events of PPVs is a sign that they're still behind him.  

All he had before that is the big guy treatment and the ability to get a response from the crowd.

*Honk*

Unrelated question, do you manually put that honk in every message, lol?

I was wondering that to lol

[wildknight]

Jul 8, 2014 1:52:52 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Jul 8, 2014 1:04:55 GMT -5 wildknight said:

... Tensai never "feuded" with Cena. He had a couple of matches with Cena. And only went Over once.

I never said he won the feud, but yes, he was feuding with John Cena.  They collided week in and week out, attacking each other after matches and making promos specifically for each other.  I also never said the feud was anything amazing, but they did feud.

... you have a very different understanding of what constitutes a "feud" from mine. A few matches is not a "feud."

Khali's "domination run" included such memorable events as him attacking Taker unawares, then following that up with a squash match over Funaki, then crushing Rey Mysterio before... dropping off the face of the earth because he wasn't able to appear at the PPV. Yep. Super dominance! Reign of terror! His "big return" was him having to cheat to defeat Cena

He also got a pin over Undertaker at a PPV during that run, but I'm pretty sure I said that his run was cut short due to his terrible in ring work.  Also, this was arguably the biggest year of Rey's career (Just a couple months after he won the WHC), so let's keep that in mind.  I'm sorry, but if you expect anyone to debut and begin with victories over the likes of John Cena, Triple H, Daniel Bryan back to back, then you're SOL.   The point is , is that he was beginning a run of dominance before it became apparent that his matches were copy and paste "Slap, chop, big boot" matches.

It is, in fact. Very much so. You don't like Reigns so you want to ignore the fact that the fans were behind him. That's your choice, but it's not a realistic view of events.

LOL.  You're making this a personal thing between me and Reigns?  I like Reigns.  I just don't drop a load in my drawers because he's not a 3X champion before he has some main event victories under his belt.[/quote]

Khali did not have a long run of dominance. You need to go back over that period and see what actually happened. He had all of 3 matches before he was taken out of active "competition" because he couldn't get medical clearance, and when he returned, he needed Daivari to cheat for him to go Over. That is not a "run of dominance" by any stretch of the imagination.

... are you seriously telling me that as a wrestling fan you don't remember (or at least won't acknowledge) all of the times that guys have been made to appear to be "Main Event" guys for the purposes of one or two PPVs and then dropped like rocks?

... are you seriously suggesting that they didn't drop like rocks because their respective runs didn't turn out with the fans or they didn't perform at the required level?  You're trying to place a dead set pattern without acknowledging the outside factors.

You keep comparing Reigns to Rollins, as if they're interchangeable. Reigns had the fans at his back. Rollins did not.

According strictly to how long they've been in the WWE, they are interchangeable.   If it's too quick to move Rollins onto the next level, then it's too quick to move Reigns, no matter how many fans he has.   Sling-shotting Sheamus, Ziggler, and Daniel Bryan so early is what fucked them over so badly.[/quote]

Yeah, I disagree. Hulk Hogan is arguably the most successful wrestler of all time. He (re)debuted in the WWF in October of 83 and won the World title in January of 84 (on my birthday, to make matters worse). Bret Hart went from winning his first IC title to winning his first World title in a matter of months. Diesel won the world title within months of coming to the company. The list goes on and on of guys who have had very successful careers after being pushed rapidly, for the very reason that they were pushed immediately when fans responded to them.

The legendary "slow build" is just that... a legend. Yes, sometimes a guy gets pushed too fast and it bombs... there is no formula for guaranteed success in the industry. Ziggler doesn't even belong on your list; his downfall had nothing to do with being in the Main Event too soon and everything to do with being punished for idiotic behavior. Sheamus did very well with the fans, despite some very vocal detractors, so I'm not even sure where you get the impression that he had a problem at all.

Bryan was legitimately a case of "too much, too soon" but he's ALSO a case of a "slow build" gone horribly wrong. The second time around they took forever to make him look like the little engine that could... and the end result was that just as he peaked, he was so burnt out from the work schedule that he injured himself and while he sits at home recuperating, all of his heat is dissipating.

... yep, they sure are. They're using his popularity with the fans to prop up their chosen guys. Cena will benefit from Reigns' popularity. Rollins will benefit from Reigns' popularity. Reigns won't, but hey, screw the fans, what do they know about what they want to see anyhow?

Dude, it benefits Reigns greatly to even be involved with the likes of Cena.  You've set up in your head that Reigns is better than what he really is.  Blindly pushing him to the moon will grow stale after a while, and then he's going to get caught in the Jack Swagger/Sheamus/Dolph Ziggler trap.   How is Reign's not already benefiting?  Like you said, look at all the people that were given big pushes and then disappeared within weeks.  They kept Reigns, and he still has plenty road to travel.

*Honk*

[/quote]

I don't see how you can claim that Reigns is benefiting from what's going on right now. Rollins has the (kayfabe) momentum and the opportunities. Ambrose gets to work with Randy Orton who is notorious for helping good workers look great. Reigns... gets to hold Cena's hand.

I'm sorry, but working with Cena is just not the boon that you want to make it out to be. Lots of guys have worked with Cena. Very few of them have seen any real tangible career benefit from it in the long run.

[Gmensox007]

Jul 8, 2014 8:42:59 GMT -5 wildknight said:

Jul 8, 2014 1:52:52 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

I never said he won the feud, but yes, he was feuding with John Cena.  They collided week in and week out, attacking each other after matches and making promos specifically for each other.  I also never said the feud was anything amazing, but they did feud.

... you have a very different understanding of what constitutes a "feud" from mine. A few matches is not a "feud."

Khali's "domination run" included such memorable events as him attacking Taker unawares, then following that up with a squash match over Funaki, then crushing Rey Mysterio before... dropping off the face of the earth because he wasn't able to appear at the PPV. Yep. Super dominance! Reign of terror! His "big return" was him having to cheat to defeat Cena

He also got a pin over Undertaker at a PPV during that run, but I'm pretty sure I said that his run was cut short due to his terrible in ring work.  Also, this was arguably the biggest year of Rey's career (Just a couple months after he won the WHC), so let's keep that in mind.  I'm sorry, but if you expect anyone to debut and begin with victories over the likes of John Cena, Triple H, Daniel Bryan back to back, then you're SOL.   The point is , is that he was beginning a run of dominance before it became apparent that his matches were copy and paste "Slap, chop, big boot" matches.

It is, in fact. Very much so. You don't like Reigns so you want to ignore the fact that the fans were behind him. That's your choice, but it's not a realistic view of events.

LOL.  You're making this a personal thing between me and Reigns?  I like Reigns.  I just don't drop a load in my drawers because he's not a 3X champion before he has some main event victories under his belt.

Khali did not have a long run of dominance. You need to go back over that period and see what actually happened. He had all of 3 matches before he was taken out of active "competition" because he couldn't get medical clearance, and when he returned, he needed Daivari to cheat for him to go Over. That is not a "run of dominance" by any stretch of the imagination.

... are you seriously telling me that as a wrestling fan you don't remember (or at least won't acknowledge) all of the times that guys have been made to appear to be "Main Event" guys for the purposes of one or two PPVs and then dropped like rocks?

... are you seriously suggesting that they didn't drop like rocks because their respective runs didn't turn out with the fans or they didn't perform at the required level?  You're trying to place a dead set pattern without acknowledging the outside factors.

You keep comparing Reigns to Rollins, as if they're interchangeable. Reigns had the fans at his back. Rollins did not.

According strictly to how long they've been in the WWE, they are interchangeable.   If it's too quick to move Rollins onto the next level, then it's too quick to move Reigns, no matter how many fans he has.   Sling-shotting Sheamus, Ziggler, and Daniel Bryan so early is what fucked them over so badly.[/quote]

Yeah, I disagree. Hulk Hogan is arguably the most successful wrestler of all time. He (re)debuted in the WWF in October of 83 and won the World title in January of 84 (on my birthday, to make matters worse). Bret Hart went from winning his first IC title to winning his first World title in a matter of months. Diesel won the world title within months of coming to the company. The list goes on and on of guys who have had very successful careers after being pushed rapidly, for the very reason that they were pushed immediately when fans responded to them.

The legendary "slow build" is just that... a legend. Yes, sometimes a guy gets pushed too fast and it bombs... there is no formula for guaranteed success in the industry. Ziggler doesn't even belong on your list; his downfall had nothing to do with being in the Main Event too soon and everything to do with being punished for idiotic behavior. Sheamus did very well with the fans, despite some very vocal detractors, so I'm not even sure where you get the impression that he had a problem at all.

Bryan was legitimately a case of "too much, too soon" but he's ALSO a case of a "slow build" gone horribly wrong. The second time around they took forever to make him look like the little engine that could... and the end result was that just as he peaked, he was so burnt out from the work schedule that he injured himself and while he sits at home recuperating, all of his heat is dissipating.

... yep, they sure are. They're using his popularity with the fans to prop up their chosen guys. Cena will benefit from Reigns' popularity. Rollins will benefit from Reigns' popularity. Reigns won't, but hey, screw the fans, what do they know about what they want to see anyhow?

Dude, it benefits Reigns greatly to even be involved with the likes of Cena.  You've set up in your head that Reigns is better than what he really is.  Blindly pushing him to the moon will grow stale after a while, and then he's going to get caught in the Jack Swagger/Sheamus/Dolph Ziggler trap.   How is Reign's not already benefiting?  Like you said, look at all the people that were given big pushes and then disappeared within weeks.  They kept Reigns, and he still has plenty road to travel.

*Honk*

[/quote]

I don't see how you can claim that Reigns is benefiting from what's going on right now. Rollins has the (kayfabe) momentum and the opportunities. Ambrose gets to work with Randy Orton who is notorious for helping good workers look great. Reigns... gets to hold Cena's hand.

I'm sorry, but working with Cena is just not the boon that you want to make it out to be. Lots of guys have worked with Cena. Very few of them have seen any real tangible career benefit from it in the long run.
[/quote][/p]

Holy Dear god........longest post ever..........

[WhoCares?]

Gmensox007

Bret Hart went from winning his first IC title to winning his first World title in a matter of months. Diesel won the world title within months of coming to the company. The list goes on and on of guys who have had very successful careers after being pushed rapidly, for the very reason that they were pushed immediately when fans responded to them.

Bret Hart wasn't pushed rapidly. He won the WWF Title 8 years after his debut in the company.

Diesel didn't win the Title within months of debuting. It was 1 year 1/2.

Just thought I'd correct you on that.

[iodill8]

Jul 8, 2014 8:42:59 GMT -5 wildknight said:

Jul 8, 2014 1:52:52 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

I never said he won the feud, but yes, he was feuding with John Cena.  They collided week in and week out, attacking each other after matches and making promos specifically for each other.  I also never said the feud was anything amazing, but they did feud.

... you have a very different understanding of what constitutes a "feud" from mine. A few matches is not a "feud."

Khali's "domination run" included such memorable events as him attacking Taker unawares, then following that up with a squash match over Funaki, then crushing Rey Mysterio before... dropping off the face of the earth because he wasn't able to appear at the PPV. Yep. Super dominance! Reign of terror! His "big return" was him having to cheat to defeat Cena

He also got a pin over Undertaker at a PPV during that run, but I'm pretty sure I said that his run was cut short due to his terrible in ring work.  Also, this was arguably the biggest year of Rey's career (Just a couple months after he won the WHC), so let's keep that in mind.  I'm sorry, but if you expect anyone to debut and begin with victories over the likes of John Cena, Triple H, Daniel Bryan back to back, then you're SOL.   The point is , is that he was beginning a run of dominance before it became apparent that his matches were copy and paste "Slap, chop, big boot" matches.

It is, in fact. Very much so. You don't like Reigns so you want to ignore the fact that the fans were behind him. That's your choice, but it's not a realistic view of events.

LOL.  You're making this a personal thing between me and Reigns?  I like Reigns.  I just don't drop a load in my drawers because he's not a 3X champion before he has some main event victories under his belt.

Khali did not have a long run of dominance. You need to go back over that period and see what actually happened. He had all of 3 matches before he was taken out of active "competition" because he couldn't get medical clearance, and when he returned, he needed Daivari to cheat for him to go Over. That is not a "run of dominance" by any stretch of the imagination.

... are you seriously telling me that as a wrestling fan you don't remember (or at least won't acknowledge) all of the times that guys have been made to appear to be "Main Event" guys for the purposes of one or two PPVs and then dropped like rocks?

... are you seriously suggesting that they didn't drop like rocks because their respective runs didn't turn out with the fans or they didn't perform at the required level?  You're trying to place a dead set pattern without acknowledging the outside factors.

You keep comparing Reigns to Rollins, as if they're interchangeable. Reigns had the fans at his back. Rollins did not.

According strictly to how long they've been in the WWE, they are interchangeable.   If it's too quick to move Rollins onto the next level, then it's too quick to move Reigns, no matter how many fans he has.   Sling-shotting Sheamus, Ziggler, and Daniel Bryan so early is what fucked them over so badly.[/quote]

Yeah, I disagree. Hulk Hogan is arguably the most successful wrestler of all time. He (re)debuted in the WWF in October of 83 and won the World title in January of 84 (on my birthday, to make matters worse). Bret Hart went from winning his first IC title to winning his first World title in a matter of months. Diesel won the world title within months of coming to the company. The list goes on and on of guys who have had very successful careers after being pushed rapidly, for the very reason that they were pushed immediately when fans responded to them.

The legendary "slow build" is just that... a legend. Yes, sometimes a guy gets pushed too fast and it bombs... there is no formula for guaranteed success in the industry. Ziggler doesn't even belong on your list; his downfall had nothing to do with being in the Main Event too soon and everything to do with being punished for idiotic behavior. Sheamus did very well with the fans, despite some very vocal detractors, so I'm not even sure where you get the impression that he had a problem at all.

Bryan was legitimately a case of "too much, too soon" but he's ALSO a case of a "slow build" gone horribly wrong. The second time around they took forever to make him look like the little engine that could... and the end result was that just as he peaked, he was so burnt out from the work schedule that he injured himself and while he sits at home recuperating, all of his heat is dissipating.

... yep, they sure are. They're using his popularity with the fans to prop up their chosen guys. Cena will benefit from Reigns' popularity. Rollins will benefit from Reigns' popularity. Reigns won't, but hey, screw the fans, what do they know about what they want to see anyhow?

Dude, it benefits Reigns greatly to even be involved with the likes of Cena.  You've set up in your head that Reigns is better than what he really is.  Blindly pushing him to the moon will grow stale after a while, and then he's going to get caught in the Jack Swagger/Sheamus/Dolph Ziggler trap.   How is Reign's not already benefiting?  Like you said, look at all the people that were given big pushes and then disappeared within weeks.  They kept Reigns, and he still has plenty road to travel.

*Honk*

[/quote]

I don't see how you can claim that Reigns is benefiting from what's going on right now. Rollins has the (kayfabe) momentum and the opportunities.  Ambrose gets to work with Randy Orton who is notorious for helping good workers look great.  Reigns... gets to hold Cena's hand.

I'm sorry, but working with Cena is just not the boon that you want to make it out to be. Lots of guys have worked with Cena. Very few of them have seen any real tangible career benefit from it in the long run.
[/quote]

Yeah. Randy Orton is great like that. He's HHH's prodigy when it comes to that.
Although its funny, because I coulda swore the WWE just had Reigns working with Orton. WTF?

[wildknight]

Jul 8, 2014 10:26:21 GMT -5 WhoCares? said:

Bret Hart wasn't pushed rapidly. He won the WWF Title 8 years after his debut in the company.

Diesel didn't win the Title within months of debuting. It was 1 year 1/2.

Just thought I'd correct you on that.

On Hart, you're splitting hairs, and you know it. He was with the company for a long time, but was never looked at as a serious singles competitor much less a Main Event guy. Reigns has essentially been working Main Events for almost a year now. Hart was with the company for a long time... but his push as a Main Event guy was VERY rapid. He himself talks about being surprised by it in his own book.

Diesel debuted in June of 93 and won his first World Title in November of 94. That is "a matter of months" by any reckoning, and Diesel's Main Event push began well before that. He won an IC title, a Tag Title, and had a very impressive Royal Rumble showing in that time.

Main Event pushes have typically been pretty rapid because, once again, the thing that made the WWF the top company in the world has been giving the fans what they want, not telling the fans what they're supposed to want. Obviously, this philosophy has been abandoned in the past few years... and the current status of the company reflects that.

[wildknight]

When did Reigns work a singles match with Orton?

[WhoCares?]

...... Fair enough.