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Post by wildknight on Jan 22, 2014 18:53:34 GMT -5
Personally, I would've put Woods as good, Ryder as neutral, and Del Rio as absolutely awful. Ryder was mediocre (which, again, just means average, neither good nor bad) a while back, but last time I saw him he looked like crap. Woods is a very good ring worker with potential to be the next R-Truth. ADR is supposedly a solid ringworker, but I've never seen evidence of it in WWE. He bores the hell out of audiences, and that simply cannot be called "good" by any objective measure. He's in the entertainment business. |
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Post by SoonDragon67 on Jan 22, 2014 18:54:11 GMT -5
I agree with all of this. Not sure what the debate about Riley is though. He's terrible, regardless. He's a charisma vacuum. I said (as you already know) that John Cena is better than most of the WWE roster, and Soon is trying to deny that...... No, you said that the amount of bad in WWE easily outweighs the good, which is false. |
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Post by BaneTheDestroyer on Jan 22, 2014 18:55:45 GMT -5
I said (as you already know) that John Cena is better than most of the WWE roster, and Soon is trying to deny that...... No, you said that the amount of bad in WWE easily outweighs the good, which is false. No, it is not.....  |
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Post by wildknight on Jan 22, 2014 18:56:41 GMT -5
So HBK watered down his moveset too? No, he never had much of one to begin with. HBK is insanely overrated, and was never anywhere near D-Bry's level of capability. If anything, I would give Michaels credit for adding to his arsenal late in his career. Admittedly, mostly stuff that was flashy and easy on his body, but still. My point is that Bryan took a page from Michaels' book in that his current ringwork isn't at all challenging to the viewer. His older stuff required you to think about strategy and invest into the ongoing drama of a match. His newer stuff (like all of Michaels' stuff) is simply flash for flashes own sake, that doesn't challenge the viewer in any way. All you have to do is sit back and watch him run around like a gerbil on crack. |
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muta75
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Post by muta75 on Jan 22, 2014 19:00:09 GMT -5
Hart digging at Flair is a receipt for the number of times Flair took digs at Hart. Flair made a ton of guys look better than they deserve..does Nikita Koloff ring any bells?
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muta75
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RONDA ROUSEY IS THE BEST FIGHTER ON THE PLANET
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Post by muta75 on Jan 22, 2014 19:01:15 GMT -5
evan bourne and justin gabriel are mind numbingly boring
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Post by SoonDragon67 on Jan 22, 2014 19:01:41 GMT -5
No, you said that the amount of bad in WWE easily outweighs the good, which is false. No, it is not..... Oh look at that, it's not. Well this argument was pointless... Wait nevermind, it's still the same basis. You're wrong. Also I'm sleep deprived and really need to get some medicine to help me sleep. |
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Post by wildknight on Jan 22, 2014 19:02:05 GMT -5
Hart digging at Flair is a receipt for the number of times Flair to digs at Hart. Flair made a ton of guys look better than they deserve..does Nikita Koloff ring any bells? I agree, but I also think that it's entirely fair to say that by the early 90's, Flair had stopped really caring all that much about his physique, his ringwork, and pretty much everything else except his paychecks. I also think it's fair to say that a lot of Flair's fame is based on his starpower, more so than his ringwork. He was good, but he was hardly the best. In terms of sheer ringwork, I'd take Bret Hart, Owen Hart, or Curt Hennig any day. |
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Post by wildknight on Jan 22, 2014 19:02:54 GMT -5
evan bourne and justin gabriel are mind numbingly boring Bourne is sloppy and had no sense of psychology, either. (Of course you're old school enough to care about psychology, so maybe that's what you meant by "boring.") |
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Post by BaneTheDestroyer on Jan 22, 2014 19:04:57 GMT -5
No, it is not..... Oh look at that, it's not. Well this argument was pointless... Wait nevermind, it's still the same basis. You're wrong. Also I'm sleep deprived and really need to get some medicine to help me sleep. I'll steal Muta's words: I know you are, but what am I? Also, I have insomnia, so I know the feeling (Not on paper, I just sleep 4 hours if that every night. Stress is the cause according to the doctor. They said as soon as the stress goes away, so will my "Insomnia," so they can't diagnose me with actual Insomnia. I hate the medical people here). |
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Post by charliebucketsgranpa on Jan 22, 2014 19:06:08 GMT -5
Hart digging at Flair is a receipt for the number of times Flair to digs at Hart. Flair made a ton of guys look better than they deserve..does Nikita Koloff ring any bells? I agree, but I also think that it's entirely fair to say that by the early 90's, Flair had stopped really caring all that much about his physique, his ringwork, and pretty much everything else except his paychecks. I also think it's fair to say that a lot of Flair's fame is based on his starpower, more so than his ringwork. He was good, but he was hardly the best. In terms of sheer ringwork, I'd take Bret Hart, Owen Hart, or Curt Hennig any day. Where would you put Benoit? From what I've seen he's one of the best. Though your more experienced in the field then I am. I've only been interested the last 10 years or so. |
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Post by SoonDragon67 on Jan 22, 2014 19:09:01 GMT -5
Oh look at that, it's not. Well this argument was pointless... Wait nevermind, it's still the same basis. You're wrong. Also I'm sleep deprived and really need to get some medicine to help me sleep. I'll steal Muta's words: I know you are, but what am I? Also, I have insomnia, so I know the feeling (Not on paper, I just sleep 4 hours if that every night. Stress is the cause according to the doctor. They said as soon as the stress goes away, so will my "Insomnia," so they can't diagnose me with actual Insomnia. I hate the medical people here). I'm lucky if I get 3 hours of sleep on weekdays... |
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Post by wildknight on Jan 22, 2014 19:13:40 GMT -5
I agree, but I also think that it's entirely fair to say that by the early 90's, Flair had stopped really caring all that much about his physique, his ringwork, and pretty much everything else except his paychecks. I also think it's fair to say that a lot of Flair's fame is based on his starpower, more so than his ringwork. He was good, but he was hardly the best. In terms of sheer ringwork, I'd take Bret Hart, Owen Hart, or Curt Hennig any day. Where would you put Benoit? From what I've seen he's one of the best. Though your more experienced in the field then I am. I've only been interested the last 10 years or so. Several years ago I would have placed Benoit amongst the best, but my ideas about what makes a great wrestler have evolved. Benoit's work looked as good as it did in part because he worked very stiff, and stiff ringwork is responsible for shortened careers and miserable lives. On one hand, Benoit was incredible in several facets of the business. On the other hand, he had the charisma of a wet fart, and may be partially responsible for a lot of long term negative consequences on the business. |
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muta75
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Post by muta75 on Jan 22, 2014 19:13:59 GMT -5
I agree, but I also think that it's entirely fair to say that by the early 90's, Flair had stopped really caring all that much about his physique, his ringwork, and pretty much everything else except his paychecks. I also think it's fair to say that a lot of Flair's fame is based on his starpower, more so than his ringwork. He was good, but he was hardly the best. In terms of sheer ringwork, I'd take Bret Hart, Owen Hart, or Curt Hennig any day. Where would you put Benoit? From what I've seen he's one of the best. Though your more experienced in the field then I am. I've only been interested the last 10 years or so. Benoit had all the physical tools (despite being a rather small guy), he wasn't blessed with a boatload of charisma, but his ring work made up for that with the fans. he got over with his ability in the ring. |
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Post by charliebucketsgranpa on Jan 22, 2014 19:16:55 GMT -5
Ok, I wasn't really speaking of Charisma at all though, I was talking about strictly ring work.
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muta75
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RONDA ROUSEY IS THE BEST FIGHTER ON THE PLANET
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Post by muta75 on Jan 22, 2014 19:19:07 GMT -5
Ok, I wasn't really speaking of Charisma at all though, I was talking about strictly ring work. that's part of it..a guy who can do every move under the sun, but can't draw the people into his work is dead in the water.. |
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Post by BaneTheDestroyer on Jan 22, 2014 19:20:37 GMT -5
I'll steal Muta's words: I know you are, but what am I? Also, I have insomnia, so I know the feeling (Not on paper, I just sleep 4 hours if that every night. Stress is the cause according to the doctor. They said as soon as the stress goes away, so will my "Insomnia," so they can't diagnose me with actual Insomnia. I hate the medical people here). I'm lucky if I get 3 hours of sleep on weekdays... When I was in school, I'd pull all nighters all of the time. I'm not anymore, had personal issues and I hoped my sleeping schedule would get back on track, but it didn't. I recommend you turn the computer off and just lay down some time before you get permanent insomnia (or what the doctors told me, "insomnia that will go away after you're no longer stressed, which isn't insomnia"). |
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Post by wildknight on Jan 22, 2014 19:20:44 GMT -5
Benoit had a special quality. I've spoken about this before. Everywhere he went (except Japan), the "powers that be" saw a "good little hand" who could make other guys look great, but wasn't himself a star... but he was absolutely tenacious. He lived and breathed professional wrestling, and his pure love for being between those ropes connected him to the audience in a way that no promo ever could. He didn't have all the fans in the world, but for those of us that were with him, it was something different, something unique. There was always a sense of momentum, and a never say die attitude. Every match Benoit would go out there and give 100%, and it felt like no matter who stood in his way, if you kept believing in him you would be rewarded.
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Post by wildknight on Jan 22, 2014 19:22:03 GMT -5
Ok, I wasn't really speaking of Charisma at all though, I was talking about strictly ring work. that's part of it..a guy who can do every move under the sun, but can't draw the people into his work is dead in the water.. Shelton Benjamin. Amazing talent between the ropes, but no ability to connect with an audience. Benoit did connect, but he did it with intensity rather than charm. |
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Post by BaneTheDestroyer on Jan 22, 2014 19:23:41 GMT -5
I've always felt like Benjamin had charisma though. Nothing too great, but to me he definitely wasn't bad on the mic.
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