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Post by miketheratguy on Feb 27, 2014 7:54:02 GMT -5
It's not at all uncommon. But I find it sad that Ali, who is constantly declared the best boxer to have ever lived and who made a career out of running his mouth in agreement, beat the champion by clowning around and then ducked him when he asked for a second shot at a real fight.
As for Robinson, he's one of the greatest of all time. He had something like two losses in over ten years and a hundred fights. The entire concept of "pound for pound" rankings exists because of him.
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Post by SoonDragon67 on Feb 27, 2014 7:59:42 GMT -5
As for Robinson, he's one of the greatest of all time. He had something like two losses in over ten years and a hundred fights. The entire concept of "pound for pound" rankings exists because of him. I know Mike. Also one of those two losses was due to fighting in 100+ degree weather. As for the other loss he fought the same guy several times and never lost again. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 8:18:19 GMT -5
It's not at all uncommon. But I find it sad that Ali, who is constantly declared the best boxer to have ever lived and who made a career out of running his mouth in agreement, beat the champion by clowning around and then ducked him when he asked for a second shot at a real fight. As for Robinson, he's one of the greatest of all time. He had something like two losses in over ten years and a hundred fights. The entire concept of "pound for pound" rankings exists because of him. Ah I'm thinking of Smoking Joe |
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Post by wildknight on Feb 27, 2014 8:25:12 GMT -5
Mike has a hard on for hating Ali, but insists that I'm the one who hates things just because they're popular *eyeroll*
... to say nothing of the fact that what he describes as "running away" and "hanging out against the ropes" is a legitimate strategy when facing an opponent who is bigger than you and doesn't have the intelligence to not gas himself throwing bombs the whole fight. Dismissing Ali's rope-a-dope is just weaksauce.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 8:30:59 GMT -5
Yeah I don't have a problem with Ali's rope a dope. Nothing wrong with forming a successful strategy. It's far more impressive to watch a boxer like Tyson who would in his prime just light up his opponents.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 8:32:24 GMT -5
One thing I do like about Ali it that he ALWAYS had time for his fans. He would spend hours signing autographs and talking with just about anyone who came over to him.
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Post by wildknight on Feb 27, 2014 8:41:10 GMT -5
I would rather watch anything BUT a guy like Tyson. Watching a couple of 'roided up freaks with no strategy pounding away is not fun for me in any way. Guys like Tyson are why the Heavyweight division doesn't matter.
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Post by miketheratguy on Feb 27, 2014 8:42:26 GMT -5
I'm not saying that Ali's strategy wasn't valid (or effective), I'm just saying that it makes for a boring, cowardly fight. You don't get in there to duck and cower and clinch, you get in there to fucking fight. What Ali did was the equivalent of throwing a rock at the big guy at recess, skipping merrily down the field as the big guy chased him, then turning around and pushing him over when he started dying of exhaustion. He won, fair enough, but he won like a chump.
For Foreman's part, Knight is correct. I have no idea why the guy didn't grasp Ali's strategy and chose instead to keep whiffing hurtin' bombs for half an hour.
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Post by wildknight on Feb 27, 2014 8:51:27 GMT -5
I'm not saying that Ali's strategy wasn't valid (or effective), I'm just saying that it makes for a boring, cowardly fight. Bullshit. "The strongest of all warriors are these two; time and patience." - Tolstoy "He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious" - Sun Tzu (etc etc etc) All macho BS aside, the point of a fight is to win. Period. There is nothing "honorable" or "pure" about going out there and trying to beat down a guy who is bigger and stronger than you. There is nothing "cowardly" about playing to your strengths and letting your enemy defeat himself. Because that's all Foreman had. Foreman isn't a boxer, he's a guy who throws really really hard punches. If that's off the table, there's nothing left. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 8:52:56 GMT -5
I would rather watch anything BUT a guy like Tyson. Watching a couple of 'roided up freaks with no strategy pounding away is not fun for me in any way. Guys like Tyson are why the Heavyweight division doesn't matter. I quite enjoyed watching Tyson annihilate people. |
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Post by miketheratguy on Feb 27, 2014 8:53:48 GMT -5
I'm not saying that Ali's strategy wasn't valid (or effective), I'm just saying that it makes for a boring, cowardly fight. Bulls***. "The strongest of all warriors are these two; time and patience." - Tolstoy "He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious" - Sun Tzu (etc etc etc) All macho BS aside, the point of a fight is to win. Period. There is nothing "honorable" or "pure" about going out there and trying to beat down a guy who is bigger and stronger than you. There is nothing "cowardly" about playing to your strengths and letting your enemy defeat himself. What a fancy way of saying "Ali spent the majority of the fight turtling on the ring apron". |
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Post by wildknight on Feb 27, 2014 8:56:39 GMT -5
To each their own, but I feel like Tyson is a perfect example of how boxing can go horribly wrong. One genetic freak and suddenly there's no need for talent or ability. So clueless was this clown that in order to defend him and make it sound like he had some sort of skill that they started calling the very basic strategy taught to ever 3rd week boxing student known as "blocking and counter punching" a new name to make it seem as if Tyson was doing something extraordinary.
As soon as Tyson had to face someone who wasn't afraid of him and who had technical skills, he got beat like a bitch.
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Post by wildknight on Feb 27, 2014 9:03:38 GMT -5
What a fancy way of saying "Ali spent the majority of the fight turtling on the ring apron". ... he didn't. And even if he had, he won. I can't stress this enough. Ali took a tremendous beating. He took hundreds of punches from Foreman. The fact is, Ali was a tactician and Foreman was a grunt. It wasn't just leaning against the ropes. It was the way Ali worked Foreman in the clinch, making Foreman expend more energy. It was the way Ali consistently took opportunities to hit Foreman in the face throughout, setting himself up for the big push he knew had to come once Foreman couldn't defend himself anymore. ... heck, even before he came to the ring, it was the fact that Foreman had trained to face one fighter, a guy who used "sleight of hand" to stay out of his opponents reach, and ended up facing an entirely different fighter, one who was willing to be hit, and be hit by one of the most dangerous punchers in the game. The rope-a-dope was beautiful man. It was sheer brains against brawn. It was history proving once again that the strategist is superior to the soldier. |
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Post by miketheratguy on Feb 27, 2014 9:10:44 GMT -5
Tactical, no doubt. Just boring. Ali was a great fighter but I think stuff like this is a good example of why he was overrated. Had Foreman had any sense and gotten his mind off of hamburger grills, this fight - and Ali's legacy- would have taken a vastly different turn.
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Post by wildknight on Feb 27, 2014 9:35:15 GMT -5
Tactical, no doubt. Just boring. Ali was a great fighter but I think stuff like this is a good example of why he was overrated. Had Foreman had any sense and gotten his mind off of hamburger grills, this fight - and Ali's legacy- would have taken a vastly different turn. How is "being the better strategist" the same as "being overrated." Foreman couldn't have formulated a strategy to beat Ali. He didn't have it in him. Ali is great because he was a great strategist. |
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Post by setokaiba on Feb 27, 2014 9:37:25 GMT -5
How did this become about boxing?
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Post by miketheratguy on Feb 27, 2014 9:41:00 GMT -5
Tactical, no doubt. Just boring. Ali was a great fighter but I think stuff like this is a good example of why he was overrated. Had Foreman had any sense and gotten his mind off of hamburger grills, this fight - and Ali's legacy- would have taken a vastly different turn. How is "being the better strategist" the same as "being overrated." Huh? They're not mutually exclusive. Ali was the smarter fighter, but I also find him generally overrated. I think that what he did in this fight, while tactful, was not especially ingenious or impressive, therefore I think that it's an example of how he's overrated. |
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Post by wildknight on Feb 27, 2014 9:41:02 GMT -5
How did this become about boxing? How does anything become anything? |
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Post by miketheratguy on Feb 27, 2014 9:41:54 GMT -5
How did this become about boxing? Shut up before I knock you upside your head with a left hook. |
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Post by wildknight on Feb 27, 2014 9:44:54 GMT -5
Huh? They're not mutually exclusive. Ali was the smarter fighter, but I also find him generally overrated. I think that what he did in this fight, while tactful, was not especially ingenious or impressive, therefore I think that it's an example of how he's overrated. You're crazy. It was ingenious, and it was very impressive. He did exactly what everyone said he couldn't do... he stood up to all of the punishment that Foreman could dish out, when he had a reputation for being afraid to take a punch. How many boxers ever dramatically change their strategy the way Ali did? You like to watch guys go out and throw bombs for a couple of rounds? Fine, whatever blows your hair back. Doesn't mean you have to act as if Ali wasn't a great fighter. Me? I'll take the dudes who outwit and outlast their opponents every time. |
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