Raw Live Discussion 7/7/14

[Deleted]

Jul 8, 2014 15:00:33 GMT -5 Straight Edge Steve said:

Jul 8, 2014 14:58:51 GMT -5 Serboy said:

...... weird. That's just flat-out disgusting, Steve.

Don't judge it until you try it.

Okay, this is getting creepy...

[Serboy]

Jul 8, 2014 15:00:33 GMT -5 Straight Edge Steve said:

Jul 8, 2014 14:58:51 GMT -5 Serboy said:

...... weird. That's just flat-out disgusting, Steve.

Don't judge it until you try it.

I will NEVER try it. EVER.

[wildknight]

Jul 8, 2014 14:54:46 GMT -5 muta75 said:

Jul 8, 2014 14:52:03 GMT -5 wildknight said:

Somehow I cannot imagine muta using the word "shush"

i actually say it a lot. there is a swear jar at my place of employ with my name on it..but i only need to add money if i actually swear directly at someone..

... that is really bizarre man

[muta75]

Jul 8, 2014 15:02:38 GMT -5 wildknight said:

Jul 8, 2014 14:54:46 GMT -5 muta75 said:

i actually say it a lot. there is a swear jar at my place of employ with my name on it..but i only need to add money if i actually swear directly at someone..

... that is really bizarre man

i've had more people beg to be taken off my crew than anyone else in the history of the company. it's a dangerous job, i don't want people working with me that i don't trust, if i don't trust them...i'm not very nice.

[wildknight]

Jul 8, 2014 15:05:10 GMT -5 muta75 said:

Jul 8, 2014 15:02:38 GMT -5 wildknight said:

... that is really bizarre man

i've had more people beg to be taken off my crew than anyone else in the history of the company. it's a dangerous job, i don't want people working with me that i don't trust, if i don't trust them...i'm not very nice.

Yeah I'm okay with that. I don't spend a lot of time embracing the "just be nice" mentality myself. I just think it's weird that they have a swear jar for you.

[muta75]

Jul 8, 2014 15:07:04 GMT -5 wildknight said:

Jul 8, 2014 15:05:10 GMT -5 muta75 said:

i've had more people beg to be taken off my crew than anyone else in the history of the company. it's a dangerous job, i don't want people working with me that i don't trust, if i don't trust them...i'm not very nice.

Yeah I'm okay with that. I don't spend a lot of time embracing the "just be nice" mentality myself. I just think it's weird that they have a swear jar for you.

it's more of a joke than anything i play along, i do have a potty mouth...

[WrestleClown]

Jul 8, 2014 8:42:59 GMT -5 wildknight said:

... you have a very different understanding of what constitutes a "feud" from mine. A few matches is not a "feud." 

Not every feud is going to run for months and months at a time and involve several matches.  There are short feuds as well.   There were more than just the matches as evidence of their feud.  Tensai also attacked John Cena from out of nowhere.   , which usually doesn't happen unless it's part of a feud or to start of feud.  It was all to try to make Tensai seem threatening, but he is an example of a guy that the fans wouldn't latch on to regardless in my opinion.

Khali did not have a long run of dominance. You need to go back over that period and see what actually happened. He had all of 3 matches before he was taken out of active "competition" because he couldn't get medical clearance, and when he returned, he needed Daivari to cheat for him to go Over. That is not a "run of dominance" by any stretch of the imagination.

It was clear that they were aiming for a run of a dominance.  It was clear that they were aiming to make him the "Next Dominating Big Guy" the moment they had him come in out of no where and knock out Taker with a chop.  They were trying to use the "shock and awe" of his size to make him seem like a legitimate challenger to the Undertaker since the very moment of his debut.  Only the momentum died down because after 4 months it became apparent that Khali had nothing to offer in the ring, and then took his first defeat 5 months after he debuted.  A run of dominance doesn't have to be impressive, he wasn't defeated for 5 months, that is a run of dominance whether you were impressed by it or not.  

Yeah, I disagree. Hulk Hogan is arguably the most successful wrestler of all time. He (re)debuted in the WWF in October of 83 and won the World title in January of 84 (on my birthday, to make matters worse). Bret Hart went from winning his first IC title to winning his first World title in a matter of months. Diesel won the world title within months of coming to the company.  The list goes on and on of guys who have had very successful careers after being pushed rapidly, for the very reason that they were pushed immediately when fans responded to them.

Back before the fans were more aware and more critical of in ring-work and less disapproving of when someone was being milked to death.  In the 80's you could put the belt around just about anyone with "Dem muscles" and the fans would go wild for the muscles and decoration.  The Ultimate Warrior is the best example of this.  You're the one that said that this is a "New Age."  In fact, you were the one who implied that the "Slow build" is dead, and that in this day and age, you need to act fast.  Yet, you know how naive wrestling fans were in the 80's and how accepting they were for anyone with a physique.  You know that doesn't happen as easily or as successfully as it used to.  Also, we're not talking about the length of time it takes to move from one championship to the next, and it took Bret Hart 8 years to get to the World Championship.

The legendary "slow build" is just that... a legend. Yes, sometimes a guy gets pushed too fast and it bombs... there is no formula for guaranteed success in the industry.

No, but giving into fan demand automatically and rapidly is usually a sure fire way to ruin what you could have.  The fans may think they know what they want, but at one point, the fans wanted Zack Ryder...  I'll let that speak for itself...

Ziggler doesn't even belong on your list; his downfall had nothing to do with being in the Main Event too soon and everything to do with being punished for idiotic behavior.

No.  His first WWE/WHC title reign came before he started acting like a fool with his attitude on the company, and you know it.  That reign was one that was so desired, but once they did it, it fell flat (because they didn't build Ziggler enough).  Fans generally enjoy Ziggler's ring-work, but you have to be really good before that can carry you through a successful championship run alone.  Ziggler's forgetful reign fell short, and like Jack Swagger, he fell down the ranks because of it.

Sheamus did very well with the fans, despite some very vocal detractors, so I'm not even sure where you get the impression that he had a problem at all.

You can't defend the idea that Sheamus has the fans in his hands, when he's getting mocked night in and out, especially with nearly every one of his matches being chanted over.  Usually when he wrestles before an unruly crowd, he has to endure chants that are basically nonsense or the occasional "Bor-ing" chant.

Bryan was legitimately a case of "too much, too soon" but he's ALSO a case of a "slow build" gone horribly wrong. The second time around they took forever to make him look like the little engine that could... and the end result was that just as he peaked, he was so burnt out from the work schedule that he injured himself and while he sits at home recuperating, all of his heat is dissipating.

What?...  LOL.  No.  Daniel Bryan's slow build payed off in the best way possible, it played a huge role in him to winning the title at WrestleMania XXX.  To suggest otherwise is nonsense.  Before the slow build, Daniel Bryan was known as a decent ring-worker who had a forgetful title run and lost a 18 second match at WrestleMania.  He didn't injure himself because he was burnt out, he injured himself because it happens.  I still see the fans as hot for him as ever, and it's evident in the reaction he gets night in and night out.  

I don't see how you can claim that Reigns is benefiting from what's going on right now. Rollins has the (kayfabe) momentum and the opportunities. Ambrose gets to work with Randy Orton who is notorious for helping good workers look great. Reigns... gets to hold Cena's hand.

I'm sorry, but working with Cena is just not the boon that you want to make it out to be. Lots of guys have worked with Cena. Very few of them have seen any real tangible career benefit from it in the long run.

Edge had the best run of his entire career (in my opinion) against Cena, and that 2006 feud propelled Edge to the top, all while working with Cena.

The highest point of Wade Barrett's career was working with or against John Cena during the whole "Nexus" thing.

John Cena provided the perfect opportunity to push the Miz to the WWE championship that provided Miz with the undoubtedly high point of his entire career.

Even with all of that being said, the actual involvement with John Cena is the high-point for the guys who didn't make it after him.  It's not John Cena's responsibility to help them after the fact.  It's up to them to carry on.  John Cena provides more attention to anyone he's involved with because he's been built up as "The Golden Boy" for years now.

*Honk*

[BaneTheDestroyer]

Jul 8, 2014 19:59:37 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Jul 8, 2014 8:42:59 GMT -5 wildknight said:

... you have a very different understanding of what constitutes a "feud" from mine. A few matches is not a "feud." 

Not every feud is going to run for months and months at a time and involve several matches.  There are short feuds as well.   There were more than just the matches as evidence of their feud.  Tensai also attacked John Cena from out of nowhere.   , which usually doesn't happen unless it's part of a feud or to start of feud.  It was all to try to make Tensai seem threatening, but he is an example of a guy that the fans wouldn't latch on to regardless in my opinion.

Khali did not have a long run of dominance. You need to go back over that period and see what actually happened. He had all of 3 matches before he was taken out of active "competition" because he couldn't get medical clearance, and when he returned, he needed Daivari to cheat for him to go Over. That is not a "run of dominance" by any stretch of the imagination.

It was clear that they were aiming for a run of a dominance.  It was clear that they were aiming to make him the "Next Dominating Big Guy" the moment they had him come in out of no where and knock out Taker with a chop.  They were trying to use the "shock and awe" of his size to make him seem like a legitimate challenger to the Undertaker since the very moment of his debut.  Only the momentum died down because after 4 months it became apparent that Khali had nothing to offer in the ring, and then took his first defeat 5 months after he debuted.  A run of dominance doesn't have to be impressive, he wasn't defeated for 5 months, that is a run of dominance whether you were impressed by it or not.  

Yeah, I disagree. Hulk Hogan is arguably the most successful wrestler of all time. He (re)debuted in the WWF in October of 83 and won the World title in January of 84 (on my birthday, to make matters worse). Bret Hart went from winning his first IC title to winning his first World title in a matter of months. Diesel won the world title within months of coming to the company.  The list goes on and on of guys who have had very successful careers after being pushed rapidly, for the very reason that they were pushed immediately when fans responded to them.

Back before the fans were more aware and more critical of in ring-work and less disapproving of when someone was being milked to death.  In the 80's you could put the belt around just about anyone with "Dem muscles" and the fans would go wild for the muscles and decoration.  The Ultimate Warrior is the best example of this.  You're the one that said that this is a "New Age."  In fact, you were the one who implied that the "Slow build" is dead, and that in this day and age, you need to act fast.  Yet, you know how naive wrestling fans were in the 80's and how accepting they were for anyone with a physique.  You know that doesn't happen as easily or as successfully as it used to.  Also, we're not talking about the length of time it takes to move from one championship to the next, and it took Bret Hart 8 years to get to the World Championship.

The legendary "slow build" is just that... a legend. Yes, sometimes a guy gets pushed too fast and it bombs... there is no formula for guaranteed success in the industry.

No, but giving into fan demand automatically and rapidly is usually a sure fire way to ruin what you could have.  The fans may think they know what they want, but at one point, the fans wanted Zack Ryder...  I'll let that speak for itself...

Ziggler doesn't even belong on your list; his downfall had nothing to do with being in the Main Event too soon and everything to do with being punished for idiotic behavior.

No.  His first WWE/WHC title reign came before he started acting like a fool with his attitude on the company, and you know it.  That reign was one that was so desired, but once they did it, it fell flat (because they didn't build Ziggler enough).  Fans generally enjoy Ziggler's ring-work, but you have to be really good before that can carry you through a successful championship run alone.  Ziggler's forgetful reign fell short, and like Jack Swagger, he fell down the ranks because of it.

Sheamus did very well with the fans, despite some very vocal detractors, so I'm not even sure where you get the impression that he had a problem at all.

You can't defend the idea that Sheamus has the fans in his hands, when he's getting mocked night in and out, especially with nearly every one of his matches being chanted over.  Usually when he wrestles before an unruly crowd, he has to endure chants that are basically nonsense or the occasional "Bor-ing" chant.

Bryan was legitimately a case of "too much, too soon" but he's ALSO a case of a "slow build" gone horribly wrong. The second time around they took forever to make him look like the little engine that could... and the end result was that just as he peaked, he was so burnt out from the work schedule that he injured himself and while he sits at home recuperating, all of his heat is dissipating.

What?...  LOL.  No.  Daniel Bryan's slow build payed off in the best way possible, it played a huge role in him to winning the title at WrestleMania XXX.  To suggest otherwise is nonsense.  Before the slow build, Daniel Bryan was known as a decent ring-worker who had a forgetful title run and lost a 18 second match at WrestleMania.  He didn't injure himself because he was burnt out, he injured himself because it happens.  I still see the fans as hot for him as ever, and it's evident in the reaction he gets night in and night out.  

I don't see how you can claim that Reigns is benefiting from what's going on right now. Rollins has the (kayfabe) momentum and the opportunities. Ambrose gets to work with Randy Orton who is notorious for helping good workers look great. Reigns... gets to hold Cena's hand.

I'm sorry, but working with Cena is just not the boon that you want to make it out to be. Lots of guys have worked with Cena. Very few of them have seen any real tangible career benefit from it in the long run.

Edge had the best run of his entire career (in my opinion) against Cena, and that 2006 feud propelled Edge to the top, all while working with Cena.

The highest point of Wade Barrett's career was working with or against John Cena during the whole "Nexus" thing.

John Cena provided the perfect opportunity to push the Miz to the WWE championship that provided Miz with the undoubtedly high point of his entire career.

Even with all of that being said, the actual involvement with John Cena is the high-point for the guys who didn't make it after him.  It's not John Cena's responsibility to help them after the fact.  It's up to them to carry on.  John Cena provides more attention to anyone he's involved with because he's been built up as "The Golden Boy" for years now.

*Honk*

Hey, I still want Ryder.

[WrestleClown]

Jul 8, 2014 20:05:33 GMT -5 BaneTheDestroyer said:

Hey, I still want Ryder.

... I heard he was hopping mad about his current position in the WWE.

*Honk*

[Deleted]

Jul 8, 2014 20:10:59 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Jul 8, 2014 20:05:33 GMT -5 BaneTheDestroyer said:

Hey, I still want Ryder.

... I heard he was hopping mad about his current position in the WWE.

*Honk*

And by position, you mean either waterboy, or Vince's personal slave, right?

[WrestleClown]

Jul 8, 2014 20:13:14 GMT -5 @atithehero said:

Jul 8, 2014 20:10:59 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

... I heard he was hopping mad about his current position in the WWE.

*Honk*

And by position, you mean either waterboy, or Vince's personal slave, right?

I mean as Adam Rose's Bunny.

... Which means PinkSparklePuff lied about being in that costume.

*Honk*

[BaneTheDestroyer]

Jul 8, 2014 20:10:59 GMT -5 WrestleClown said:

Jul 8, 2014 20:05:33 GMT -5 BaneTheDestroyer said:

Hey, I still want Ryder.

... I heard he was hopping mad about his current position in the WWE.

*Honk*

I actually just read that Vince is cutting off 20 million dollars worth of employees right now. Ryder could potentially be fired.

[BaneTheDestroyer]

And if that is true, I wonder if they had plans on cutting Emma, then tried taking advantage of the situation, and then it backfired so they reinstated her. I wouldn't hold it past them, lol.

[WrestleClown]

Jul 8, 2014 20:22:33 GMT -5 BaneTheDestroyer said:

And if that is true, I wonder if they had plans on cutting Emma, then tried taking advantage of the situation, and then it backfired so they reinstated her. I wouldn't hold it past them, lol.

They planted the I-Phone case on her to make her seem guilty, only to fire her, only to reinstate, her only to fire her again.

It's perfect.

*Honk*

[wildknight]

Tired of micro-quoting, so...

1) I agree that Tensai was probably doomed regardless, but I don't remotely agree that an ambush automatically means a feud, and I think it's fairly obvious that Tensai was never "feuding" with Cena.

2) They WERE aiming for Khali to be dominant. Where your argument falls apart is your claim that it failed because it was obvious that his ringwork wasn't good enough. It fell apart as soon as the Punjabi Prison Match didn't happen

3) No no no. Not "back before" anything. The fans today are more critical of ringwork? Really? I can't even begin to comprehend that you believe that to be the case. The fans today might believe that they're more critical, but most guys today have an abominable lack of ring psychology that would have left them completely unemployed 30 years ago. Audiences have changed, but none of those changes give any advantage to a slow build over a fast one.

4) Giving in to fan demand is no more or less likely to result in massive failure than resisting fan demand.

5) Ziggler's first WHC reign fell apart because he didn't legitimately have broad fan backing. He was an IWC darling, and the list of guys the IWC has loved right up until they succeeded and then abandoned is as long as my arm. Ziggler's ringwork wasn't lacking at all in that time. He was far ahead of most of the guys in the Main Event in that regard. Ringwork doesn't really have anything to do with success or failure anymore.

6) Sheamus is a top merch mover and does great segment ratings. I don't care what chants he has to "endure."

7) Bryan's slow build "paid off" with him winning the title at WM30? Really? So that's all that matters, winning a fake title? Funny, I thought the point was to have a long, successful run, not to win a couple of matches at one PPV. Bryan could have had that long run... if they'd moved on his popularity with the fans six months in.

8) Your opinion of when Edge, etc had their "best runs" doesn't mean all that much to me in terms of this discussion, sorry. I'm sure plenty of fans would strongly disagree that anyone had their best rivalry/matches with Cena. Without question, you're simply wrong about Barrett, who has enjoyed much greater success in not one but two gimmicks following the whole Nexus thing. Most Barrett fans consider the Nexus thing to be a time when he was being made to look worthless and weak... and I agree with them.

I never suggested that what comes after a Cena rivalry is Cena's responsibility, but it's equally ridiculous to claim that working with Cena is evidence of a push.


Re: Hart with the company 8 years, etc etc... utter nonsense. We're talking about Main Event Builds here, not "time with the company." Hart was not being built for anything for most of his time with the company, much less Main Event status. Bret's actual Main Event build was very fast... thought not really by the actual existing standard, given I'm not sure where people get this notion that the "slow build" has some proven track record.

[wildknight]

Ryder should have been fired a couple of years ago

[setokaiba]

Jul 8, 2014 20:33:46 GMT -5 wildknight said:

Ryder should have been fired a couple of years ago

I hope Ryder buries Roman just because you said this.

[Straight Edge Steve]

Zack Ryder is trash.

[BaneTheDestroyer]

Jul 8, 2014 20:33:46 GMT -5 wildknight said:

Ryder should have been fired a couple of years ago

Jul 8, 2014 20:40:09 GMT -5 setokaiba said:

Jul 8, 2014 20:33:46 GMT -5 wildknight said:

Ryder should have been fired a couple of years ago

I hope Ryder buries Roman just because you said this.

I'm with Seto, even though he may be joking.


#SetoForMod

[WhoCares?]

Re: Hart with the company 8 years, etc etc... utter nonsense. We're talking about Main Event Builds here, not "time with the company." Hart was not being built for anything for most of his time with the company, much less Main Event status. Bret's actual Main Event build was very fast... thought not really by the actual existing standard, given I'm not sure where people get this notion that the "slow build" has some proven track record.

Yeah, I realized after a while that I read the discussion completely wrong, and I admit defeat.